Trump or Clinton?
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I guess most people on here would say either Clinton, or neither of the above. 

But I have just read a book on the Clintons, there can scarcely have been a more venal couple in the history of politics. I am not saying that makes it sensible to vote for Trump, but how anyone can contemplate voting for Hillary is beyond me. I think I would stay at home and hope everyone else did the same for a 0-0 draw. 

As a post script, how come Bill got elected twice when his personality defects are far worse than Trump's, go figure. 

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Hi Ryan, it’s me with a boatload of those pesky facts that you should spend more time with before making statements such as the one about President Obama above. Since he became President this has happened:

 

  • For seventy-eight consecutive months, the US economy has gotten progressively better. That includes a new record for 68 consecutive months of private sector growth, the longest period of private sector job creation in American history.
  • Unemployment has dropped from 10.1% in October of 2009 to 4.9% by early 2016. Since the recession ended, the US economy has gained over twelve million new jobs.
  • The stock market has set new record highs since President Obama took office. Since early 2009, there has been a steady upward trend in stock market growth. The Dow Jones Industrial averages reached an all-time high of 18,292 in May, 2015. 
  • Under President Obama, government spending has increased only 3.3% annually, the lowest rate since Eisenhower was president and far less than President Reagan (8.7%) or George W. Bush (8.1%).
  • For 95% of American taxpayers, income taxes are as low or lower than they were at almost any point in the last 50 years. After President Obama took office, thousands of Tea Party members all over the country held rallies protesting Obama’s tax increases. At that time, President Obama had actually passed several tax cuts to stimulate the economy. Most of the Tea Partiers who were protesting had only seen their taxes decrease under Obama, yet polls indicated that most Tea Party members wrongly believed their taxes had gone up.In fact, the only people whose income taxes have gone up during Obama’s presidency are those making $400,000 per year or more. That's less than 2% of the population.
  • Dependence on foreign oil has shrunk due to record domestic oil production and improved fuel efficiency standards. Oil production has reached record highs. The United States now produces so much oil that they export more oil and gasoline than they import.
  • At least 18 million more Americans now have health insurance than before. 18 million Americans acquired health insurance due to the Affordable Care Act and no longer depend on the State. Since passage of the Affordable Care Act, we are seeing the slowest rate of increase in healthcare costs since 1960.
  • There have been zero successful attacks by al Qaeda on US soil since Obama became president. Despite Dick Cheney’s warning that if voters elected a Democrat as president, we’d be “hit again and hit hard” by al Qaeda, America has actually been far safer from terrorist attacks on US soil in recent years than they were under George Bush. 
  • The US now successfully catch and deport more illegal immigrants than ever before. Despite the mythology being spread by Trump about our "open border" with Mexico, the numbers prove that President Obama has turned back and deported more illegal immigrants than any other president in history.

You may wish to compare any or all of those facts with the equivalent performance of the UK, or in fact any other country in the world.

I can't bring myself to list the grotesque things that Trump has done or said which make him unfit for office or the fact that he has not given a single policy explanation of how any of his "policies" could work (mexican wall, tax cuts for the wealthy raising money(!) or making affordable healthcare "way better").

However, I am intrigued as to how a Trump Presidency could possibly be better for the UK? 

Do tell!

Edited by exiile
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Beggars belief how anyone can contemplate electing a man with his views and actions to be the most powerful man on earth.  To be honest i fear for us all if the best two candidates they can come up with are those two. 

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Neither candidate is fit to be president.

 

Trump recognised that anybody who challenges the intellectual class and media will be vilified.   The scale of the hostility has been unprecedented.  However, his judgement is poor and he lacks moral gravitas.

 

Clinton is the darling of the east coast soft Left.  She enjoys the unqualified support of the media in Europe as well as in the USA.  However, her campaign is dirty and her judgement is also very poor.  

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2 minutes ago, RADCLIFFE LOYAL said:

Neither candidate is fit to be president.

 

Trump recognised that anybody who challenges the intellectual class and media will be vilified.   The scale of the hostility has been unprecedented.  However, his judgement is poor and he lacks moral gravitas.

 

Clinton is the darling of the east coast soft Left.  She enjoys the unqualified support of the media in Europe as well as in the USA.  However, her campaign is dirty and her judgement is also very poor.  

I am fascinated that you choose to present the candidates as equally bad. 

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3 hours ago, D-L-T said:

I knew when I opened this thread Shaker Ryan would be endorsing Trump. As certain as night meeting day.

Do we have to like him? 

Out of two candidates who puts their money into the UK? 

Which party said the UK would be "back of the queue" if we voted to leave the European Union?

You don't have to like or agree with people you trade with. 

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36 minutes ago, Shaker Ryan said:

Do we have to like him? 

Out of two candidates who puts their money into the UK? 

Which party said the UK would be "back of the queue" if we voted to leave the European Union?

You don't have to like or agree with people you trade with. 

It isn't so much a question of 'like' as opposed to one we can deal with on a rational level, on the assumption that the next US President has the political experience and good judgement to foster mutually beneficial and ethical trade deals with the UK.  Trump has none of these abilities. 

Chinese interests feature highly in the UK re. cheap steel, toys, furniture and clothing; expensive off plan building aquisitions in cities and now, our nuclear energy industry.  Would you say that Joe Public has benefitted in any way, shape or form because of their high levels of investment? What price do you believe we will be expected to pay for this?   We have already been reduced to surviving on scraps from the tables of undemocratic, morally and ethically dubious governments world wide and if Trump does win the US election I doubt very much that any future dealings we have with the US will be a two way street.

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3 hours ago, exiile said:

I am fascinated that you choose to present the candidates as equally bad. 

It's just an honest appraisal.

 

I think the Democratic Party - with the help of elements within the US media - have built Clinton's campaign on toxifying her opponent.  This has had the "...look, a squirrel" effect - the public are focused upon Trump's failings rather than Clinton's problems (I. e., "e-mailgate", the organised provocation at Republican rallies).  It was the Democrats who labelled Trump supporters as "a basket of deplorables".  Additionally, there are probably those who don't like Trump because he is male, white and a capitalist.

 

On the other hand, much of the energy in Trump's campaign is also negative.  He is right to expose the hypocrisy of the centre-Left establishment and associated media buddies.  However, I'm not at all sure what Trump stands for beyond this.  Add his personal behaviour and he just isn't my idea of a president.

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Like asking what you prefer to be hit down there by, A kick or a punch ?. Clinton just. Because Trump is worse. Do not want to say Clinton is better.

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Clinton however the main reason would be because she is not Trump.

The truth is politics is often about choosing who you perceive to be the least bad candidate.

Remember like football managers not all candidates are bad, some of them are worse ;) 

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Obama has added £6.5 trillion (conservative figure) to the US debt since 08 and has failed to achieve over 3% GDP growth in 8 years, only US president to fail to do so. Also, he has added more debt than any other president. I don't dispute many of your points Exiile, you're usually well informed, but it has come at one hell of a cost. 

 

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7 hours ago, myrabury said:

It isn't so much a question of 'like' as opposed to one we can deal with on a rational level, on the assumption that the next US President has the political experience and good judgement to foster mutually beneficial and ethical trade deals with the UK.  Trump has none of these abilities. 

Chinese interests feature highly in the UK re. cheap steel, toys, furniture and clothing; expensive off plan building aquisitions in cities and now, our nuclear energy industry.  Would you say that Joe Public has benefitted in any way, shape or form because of their high levels of investment? What price do you believe we will be expected to pay for this?   We have already been reduced to surviving on scraps from the tables of undemocratic, morally and ethically dubious governments world wide and if Trump does win the US election I doubt very much that any future dealings we have with the US will be a two way street.

Political experience, I think that's what made people vote Brexit and will make people vote for Donald Trump. They don't want anymore political experienced people, rightly or wrongly. 

I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball! ;) You could flip that and say what difference will Clinton make? What I do know is that the Democratic Party's current leader said we'll be back of the queue and the Republican Party's leader has said he's very much open for trade deals with the U.K.   

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10 hours ago, Shaker Ryan said:

Political experience, I think that's what made people vote Brexit and will make people vote for Donald Trump. They don't want anymore political experienced people, rightly or wrongly. 

I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball! ;) You could flip that and say what difference will Clinton make? What I do know is that the Democratic Party's current leader said we'll be back of the queue and the Republican Party's leader has said he's very much open for trade deals with the U.K.   

I think that most of the post Brexit polling shows that most of the pro-brexit votes were from voters who were anti immigration.

I know that it is a popular notion that people don't like professional politicians - or the "liberal elite" at RL calls them and I am sure there is some truth in that but the Brexit vote was fought between two camps of professional politicians.

If Trump wins we are definitely living in a society that is going back to days when we had tribes and not countries but I will absolutely guarantee that he will not involve himself one iota in making deals with anybody. He will carry on shooting from the hip, firing off insults and leaving the "professional politicians" to clear up the mess behind him.

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One should be in prison, the other is a complete joke. I'll let you decide who is which.

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17 hours ago, Shaker Ryan said:

Political experience, I think that's what made people vote Brexit and will make people vote for Donald Trump. They don't want anymore political experienced people, rightly or wrongly. 

I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball! ;) You could flip that and say what difference will Clinton make? What I do know is that the Democratic Party's current leader said we'll be back of the queue and the Republican Party's leader has said he's very much open for trade deals with the U.K.   

Obama has disappointed many people however his second term in office has been blighted by a republican senate fighting even reasonable reforms tooth and nail.  I appreciate & understand the differences in culture and tradition between the US and ourselves, however for example,  Trump's promise to repeal 'Obama Care' is beyond contempt (in my opinion).  I didn't care for Bill Clinton and I like his wife even less, however she is still better qualified to undertake the Presidential role.

The Republican idea of UK trade revolves pretty much around TTIP which would be a disaster for the UK. 

No thanks.

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The FBI has opened another investigation into Clinton's use of email while she was Secretary of State.  They are attempting to establish whether she used insecure and personal accounts to transmit classified information.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, RADCLIFFE LOYAL said:

Clinton could be arrested and tried over e-mailgate.  

What laws has she allegedly broken? 

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